New Topic! Sandbagging

[Administrator]

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[Westi7]

I just wanted to continue from my previous article. SW48 I'm very familiar w/ the teams based out of the Panhandle and I assure you no team over here is sandbagging. Not because we don't want to, but because our USSSA dir doesn't allow it and keeps tight reigns on everything. I make this simple I want everyone to go to the usssa website and look up the past D World champions and look at their records for that year. Now all of the usssa champions from 2000 on have been from areas outside of the southeast. The question I have is most of these teams records going into the worlds is like 9-0, 19-4, 13-4, etc.. etc... Now I'm no rocket scientist but how do you start your season in July only play like 15-20 games and then go walk through the toughest tournament in softball? Also go look at some of the scores of these teams during that tourney. Go and try and find a team history/roster etc... Not accusing anyone of anything, but I have talked w/ many players at these worlds and from their mouth have told me that they play up all year and don't play any usssa till the end then are able to drop to D at the end and go to the worlds. Let me hear what you guys think.

[sallee24]

I think there should be no E to start with. Because your true D class is were everyone is playing E that means no homeruns and an ejection if you hit one. Then your teams that are playing "D" right now would play c were you get your 2 homeruns and still have to play defense and hit it down. Then I think teams would fall in were they are suppose to.Basically in my opinion if you are a competitive E team you should just stick to league. If you are good enough to play on the weekends with a sponsor then play something above rec ball tournaments..Which is what E is. Thankfully some directors do there jobs and make teams and players play were they are suppose to and unfortunately some just want the money..But thats just my opinion.

[Westi7]

I agree Jason, but what's a realistic way to prevent all this. Do you think all the associations can pull rosters from all the teams that play in the Nationals for say ASA, and Worlds for all the other associations (because that's the only time I know for sure they sign rosters) then at the end of that year classify every player that's on a roster in that class across the board for the following year then say you can only have 4 of those players in 1 class lower the following year? I just know that nationally it's way out of control and until they start classifying players the game will continue to decline.

[SW48]

Winning percentages is the only way to classify teams. A class B player playing on a D team, doesn't make the D team a C team.

I have had plenty of higher level players play for my teams and they did so because they wanted to play with their friends or because there was no higher level team that asked them to play. Player classification gets you nowhere.

The USSSA does need to add a hidden drivers license or social security number field to their database though so that players don't get away with "modifyng" their name.

Winning percentages in class are the only way. If you are winning 70% of your games in class then you are sandbagging.

[EastonOhio]

Winning percentages is the only way to classify teams. A class B player playing on a D team, doesn't make the D team a C team.

I have had plenty of higher level players play for my teams and they did so because they wanted to play with their friends or because there was no higher level team that asked them to play. Player classification gets you nowhere.

The USSSA does need to add a hidden drivers license or social security number field to their database though so that players don't get away with "modifyng" their name.

Winning percentages in class are the only way. If you are winning 70% of your games in class then you are sandbagging.

1. NSA classifieds all players.
2. You can only drop one class per year as an individual.. so yes adding a B player to a D team would make them C. Problem is, why would a B caliber player want to play D? QUICK ANSWER - TO DOMINATE!
3. No longer use the excuse, our state doesn't have a B program...... as a way of clissifying
4. YOu cannot base classing teams on winning pct, you many other variables involved.

5. Personally, why should a team that competes in one level be allowed to have ANY Players of a higher level on that team? Why is it 4? So if I played B, I could have Purcell, Wegman, Helmer and Bumgardner and be legal? RETARDED Rule!

6. Just make sure to keep the directors in check and twinker with the online system to identify players by their SSN not their name spelling!

7. and to answer the Utrip World Champion Trivia question Shockers/Paul Davis won the C worlds last year averaging 9 runs a game. Look em up.

8 The difference between the teams in the North and South is defense.. they play it much better across the board in the North. In the south, they hit first, catch 2nd.

[Westi7]

I greatly respect your thoughts and ideas and not sure if there's a real way. I was not talking about C USSA worlds I was talking about D and I for sure don't think the northern teams are better defensively at least at the C and D level, just my opinion of course. I guess I'm going to just have to come out and say it since no one else will. From what I've physically seen and from what I've been told directly from the players in reference. They wont play USSSA all year ON PURPOSE or because it's not big in their area, then they will put together a team towards the end of the year just to play USSSA and go to the worlds and win, which, I know I will get bashed for saying this, but I honestly don't care if they do that and here's why. My opinion is that if you can keep it in the park and are not hitting homeruns for outs and don't have to hit the middle to keep it down then I don't have a problem w/ you playing down because at the C and D level bottom line is defense wins championships and last time I checked they measure classifications based on the amount of homeruns allowed right? Now where I have a problem is that down here, in USSSA, they don't allow us to stack a team and go to the worlds because all the good players are known by the usssa directors and they wont allow it. Trust me I've tried!(Just being honest) I think if you classify players there also has to be some guidelines involved and maybe someone can help me w/ an answer to this? Say you have a player that is a true C or D player and just happens to be in the right place at the right time and gets a chance to go and play A ball and say half way through the year or at the end of that season you get cut or decide to quit that team but are not able to get picked by another team. Should this player just be screwed and not be able to play at all, sit out 1 year, etc.... This is why I don't see this getting fixed because I have friends in this boat and I truly don't think in those few cases it would be right to now say they can only play A now. What are your thoughts on that?

[Pylon #00]

IMO one of the biggest problems with USSSA is the fact that teams don't have to qualify to go to worlds. Just play x-amount of tourneys and pay your entry fee and you are in. That allows these teams that don't have USSSA in their area to throw a team together at the end of the year just to take a run at a title.

Now I know that at large berths are a cash cow for the association and it is never going to stop... but until you have to qualify to attend the world tournament, it will be nothing more than a huge NIT.

[Westi7]

Thank you thank you! I have been on message boards for years now w/ the same arguement and no one ever steps up and backs me on it. I mean if you honestly think about it, how does a team that only gets to play a few months out of the year come down south and dominate the SE teams that get to play year round? It's not because they play better defense or hit it better up north it's because they come stacked w/ talented players that play upper ball all year in other associations then at the end through together an all star team and try to win the worlds. Again I'm guilty of it in the past myself so not knocking these teams just saying that in order for the SE teams to be able to compete at the usssa worlds our directors need to losen up so it's fair across the board or fix the problem and tighten up nationally! JMO. Thanks again for the responses

[SW48]

Westi,

I would say it all depends what area of the country you are from when you say an all star team comes from here or there and dominates. Everyone thinks their area is not sandbagging and everyone else is. Hence one of the biggest problems with softball today.

My first world tournament that I played in was NSA E and you had to qualify for it by winning states or finishing top 2 in Regional. When we got to Florida with our State championship team from Ohio we got beat by a team from California 15-1 in 5 innings. We had never seen a team hit the ball so hard in the E division. After our loss we sat and watched the next game which had a local team from Florida. As they warmed up we watched as this guy about 6'4, 210 pounds of solid muscle took off his tshirt which said "B World All Tournament Team" and put on the team uniform that his new team gave him. These guys were shaking his hand and welcoming him to the team. This was in September.

On August 1st they should take your in class winning percentage based upon tournament games played and determine if you move up a class before worlds. If you don't play 20 games, you don't qualify for worlds. If you win 65% of your games or more you move up, if your win percentage is 30% of your games or below you move down. If you had a good season and you were forced up before worlds obviously your team will probably not do that well at Worlds but hey you dominated most of the season, its time to compete where you belong. Teams will sandbag but they won't lose intentionally.

There is no perfect system.

[EastonOhio]

Westi,

Not sure which part of the North you are talking about in regards to all star teams going to USSSA Worlds.. I know in cleveland, ohio, that ain't happening!!! Never has since I was a 22 year old, 19 years ago, before that, can't answer ya.

ASA,NSA and ISA same story

Now WSL, you are correct. Hell apparently they don't even check rosters at that worlds. You can play on 2 different teams in 2 different classes and even collect a top ten finish in both!!!! WTH is that?

[Westi7]

I'm not calling out any state inparticular just have seen it first hand at the D level because of all the reason stated in previous post. Now sandbagging happens all over in all associations but what I've been saying is that I've seen it the most in USSSA at the D level. Again if you don't believe me go to www.usssa.com and go look at the world champions list dated back to 2000 and all the teams that have won it have been from up north and conveniently enough before that tourney none of the teams played very many games, don't have an extensive roster history, and majority of those teams have went through it undefeated with maybe 1 or 2 of the 8+ games it takes to win even close. So with all that being said how does it look to you and convince me there's not a problem and that every one of these teams were legit! Again remember also I have personally spoke w/ some of the players throughout the years while at the D worlds and some of them admitted to me how they get away w/ it every year and really there's nothing any one can do about it since they don't play usssa all year then they sanction right before the national in D which is not what they played in other associations through out the year if they even played together as a team before the worlds. Have seen in some cases were they've just thrown together an all star team just to go to the worlds and their state directors say they're legit and once again nothing we can do. Plus when the usssa d has over 200 teams every year it makes it harder to pick out the sandbaggers!

[SW48]

I hear you westi. I can say that a lot of usssa directors in the north don't even put their tournaments in the USSSA website so those teams probably played plenty of tournaments. One year my team played 6 qualifiers and went to worlds with zero points. Directors in some parts don't even know there is a website. I feel you should have to have 20 games or you don't play Worlds.

[Westi7]

I'm not sure if there's a solution but I just know that in USSSA things are done alot different than they are here in the SE. Heck to tell you how by the book they are in the Panhandle and Rush does a great job, we are sanction D in usssa out of GA but aren't allowed to play d in FL because are team, to the directors down here, is too strong for D. So there you have it!

[hound24]

I played in the same league as shockers/pdr last year and its the same team that played here that went to worlds and won. there was no loading up or stacking going on. yes their defense was great but they were totally beatable as a matter of fact in a local festival tournament they were dimed by a d team that finished in the middle third of d state.

[dfreeman]

Sandbagging is a direct result of too much ego and not enough pride. Any athlete worth his salt will want to play up a level not down. Just my 2 cents

Daniel

[Westi7]

I agree 100% but unfortunatly right now when you get to almost every world in all associations, your E is D, your D is B/C, etc.... Until the entire softball world in all associations gets on the same page you almost force the sponsors that spend tons of money all year in order to go to the worlds and have a CHANCE at winning one to play down! It's sad and hopefully some how some way things will change, but unfortunatly I don't see it happening during my career! Maybe by the time my son ever plays this game, ten years from now, it will be right!

[EastonOhio]

Why do MEN always put it on someone else?

Like the guy above said, put it on yourselves to fix it. Play where you are challenged and without shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaving your tools!

[Westi7]

I wish it was that easy, but reality is until the associations and well I can't include directors cuz they're a major part of the problem nationally, make some rules and guideline changes sandbagging will only continue to get worse! Softball will have to move in and say starting next year this is what we're going to do, whether it's classifying the players etc...! Unfortunatly directors nationwide will not all do what's right and that's a major part of the problem because they want to bring the title back to their state! Now you have some directors that are getting to the point where they're saying "if you can't beat them, join them!" So I don't know what to say, but I know it's not as simple as saying play where you belong cuz that's what we've been saying for years and it only continues to get worse!

[camplo14]

westi, hey there I agree for the most point sandbagging is a problem when there is money involved for directors they will do what they have to do to make a buck and you know that 1st. hand. I would like to see something done from the national asociation someone above the local and state directors. and I also agree with there being no E class. Remember when we use to all just play C we hit the 2 homeruns and played great D. that was awesome and we would get 15 to 20 teams every weekend what happened to that. Also with the balls and bats we have today anyone can hit it out even you lol. I dont have the answer but would support a change thats for sure.

Charlie

[ScottKirby77]

When did sandbagging even enter the picture? I mean like what year did it start. Was it when the homerun rules started. Was it the double wall bats, composites, restricted balls, when did it start?

[Westi7]

I'm honestly not sure Kirby. Maybe some of the veteran players may be able to answer that. Great question though. My guess would be when they came out w/ D and E class!

[Nolan19]

I'm honestly not sure Kirby. Maybe some of the veteran players may be able to answer that. Great question though. My guess would be when they came out w/ D and E class!

Answer is = when brakins started playing...get a clue westi! doesn't take a veteran to answer that one.

[strick#15]

We shouldn't wait for the powers that be to try and fix it, its our sport! We should police ourselves, step up and play where we are able, not where we can win everything, but where we can compete. That doesn't mean, where you are absolutely the best (unless you are Resmondo), it means where you can compete. If you can't win the world, then that's what it is. Only one team can win it in each division. I've played for 17 or 18 years and have never won a world; a few states, placed in some naty's and worlds and am damn proud that I can say I've played at or above where I actually should have. I am a sponsor/player and would not drop down just to win a world. We have a competitive C team and that's what it is, we may not win a world but NO one can say we sandbag, if we go to a world it will be in C or above, not because we are forced by an association but because we choose to.
JMHO

[Coach Kirby]

When did sandbagging even enter the picture? I mean like what year did it start. Was it when the homerun rules started. Was it the double wall bats, composites, restricted balls, when did it start? Sandbagging to some extent has been around for ever. But it is rampant in today's softball. I quit playing competitive softball back in the early 80's and yes we used aluminium bats and not wood but they were 34" 38oz. Back then if I recall right it only went down to C Which was I believe comparable to today's C class so if you were not at least to that caliber of ball player you just played league. So adding the D & E levels is not a bad thing it give more players an opportunity to play on a competitive level. It's like it has been said earlier if you don't police yourself and want to play up then it is going to be a difficult task to stop sandbagging. Now looking at it from the other end To spread out the talent I believe one of the best ways to eliminate the 1 of 2 dominate teams and make it more competitive across the board is to use the major players list and limit any one team to no more than 6 players from it. Unfortunately I have spoken to several of the major sponsors and they said they would stop sponsoring. Is that a bad thing, I will let you decide.

[Westi7]

Strick I have nothing but respect for you and your team buddy! You're one of the few sponsors that does everything right! I honestly can't see anything changing but I do know it will take a nationwide effort and it all lies in the hands of the powers to be and I hope it happens soon.

[brandon22]

Hey westi... shouldnt u b an expert on this topic since u & your team r the king of sandbagging? u guys r the biggest problem in softball as far as sandbagging! hypocrit.

[Westi7]

Well I appreciate your concern and value your opinions but we're not trying to compete on a local level we're trying to win a world and when you get to the worlds even playing down it's still very hard to even compete. Thanks for the post and wish you and your team the best!

[super5]

westi, i don't mean any disrespect here, but how can you lead a topic on stopping sandbagging, when that's exactly what you're admittedly doing? playing down to win worlds...that's what sandbagging is.
in and earlier post you said some directors take the "if you can't beat em, join em" approach. sounds like you agree with them?

[SW48]

This is exactly the mentality that is hurting softball. The thought that to win a world tournament you have to play one level down, which is called SANDBAGGING! Your team is putting way too much thought into the world tournament.

This problem you have with the North and West is a figment of your imagination. The sandbagging issue is prevalent in all corners of the country.

Having been to the first 5 Conference tournaments I can say that I believe the Major, and B teams are correctly classed. There are probably a couple A teams that could drop down to B. There are a large number of C teams that could easily play B and a large number of D teams that should be playing C.

There is only one solution. You start the year in the class you think you should be in. You play 20 games in that class and on August 1st if your winning percentage is .699 or lower you remain in that class the rest of the year. If your winning percentage is greater than .700 then you either play up a class or you don't play.

[Jimbonecrusher]

I don't play tourneys for the sake of not having a team to play on, but I can tell you that sandbagging in North Carolina happens. I used to be able to get on the USSSA website here in NC and read what was happening. I would see the same stuff posted about sandbagging, and the only thing that was said in retaliation by the teams being accused was for the other teams that got beat to practice more. Some of the teams accused have a rather strong stable of players. They all hit hard, hit well, and have lots of power. Just what I have seen. A standard needs to be set, followed by the directors, and enforced by the association in order to be successful and to make things even again.

[CaliMike]

why do you think there is an explosion of "e" and "d" and now wtf???? D-Rec teams. directors let them. i know its an accomplishment to win a ring, but i wouldn't have anything to do with and "E" anything. or a d rec "title". i think people need to play at the highest level they are given the opportunity to play. if you are worried about a softball ring, you arent a "e" player. if you wear uniforms, you are not an e player. if you have more than 1 bat and.... you get the picture......

take a team like c town. they played d for years and would do really well at worlds. but because there were no C/B tournys for them to play they had no choice but to play d. next thing you know, they stumble on some money and now they are one of the better "a" teams in the country right now.

people should be real and honest, and use the honor system and play where they should.

[strick#15]

...........

people should be real and honest, and use the honor system and play where they should.


I wish everyone would do that! In a perfect world that would be the answer! It starts with yourself (not u Mike) but everybody. If u are playing where u should than everyone is in the right class. And every state will have D through A states and plenty of teams to play in each class! Wouldn't that be nice!!

[power-pitcher]

problem in the midwest id A B C ball is about dead, So everyone drops down to D & E to be able to play more locally.

[CaliMike]

maybe they should take away "chip" players. like no "C" rated players on a "d" team. and no "b" on a "c" team. make everyone play what they are rated. and then force local tourny directors to provide upper tournys and supers for everyone to be able to play.

[blasian]

maybe they should take away "chip" players. like no "C" rated players on a "d" team. and no "b" on a "c" team. make everyone play what they are rated. and then force local tourny directors to provide upper tournys and supers for everyone to be able to play.


definitely agree

[opie]

then force local tourny directors to provide upper tournys and supers for everyone to be able to play.

That may be easier said than done.

[CaliMike]

not if they create a path for upper teams to exist and stay afloat locally!

[Westi7]

Like you said Mike the only way this would be a go is if they started classifying teams better. there are teams now that are playing B and C that could compete at the A level but only problem is the money needed for all the travel but if they would bump more teams there would be more A teams, heck I don't know anymore. I don't see anything changing honestly! Hate to be negative and hope I'm wrong but just don't see it happening!

[super5]

you're right to feel negative about it westi. usssa has gotten in such a big hole with this. unless they restructure the whole thing, it almost cannot be fixed. there are so many ideas out there, but every one i've heard leaves too many loop holes. it's unfortunate that so many grown men are always looking to get through those holes. what happened to our pride in wanting to compete where we actually belong? we don't see people going to college on a basketball scholarship only to play intramurals so they can win a title. what sense of accomplishment does a team that knowingly plays lower than their talent level get out of winning a "title" at a lower level? is it the word "title"?...or "ring"?...or "world champions"? what are they chasing??? HAVE SOME PRIDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[strick#15]

you're right to feel negative about it westi. usssa has gotten in such a big hole with this. unless they restructure the whole thing, it almost cannot be fixed. there are so many ideas out there, but every one i've heard leaves too many loop holes. it's unfortunate that so many grown men are always looking to get through those holes. what happened to our pride in wanting to compete where we actually belong? we don't see people going to college on a basketball scholarship only to play intramurals so they can win a title. what sense of accomplishment does a team that knowingly plays lower than their talent level get out of winning a "title" at a lower level? is it the word "title"?...or "ring"?...or "world champions"? what are they chasing??? HAVE SOME PRIDE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


There it is! HAVE SOME PRIDE!!! If everyone who made the decisions for each team would remember that, everyone would be where they should. Man I wish it was 1993 again and people wanted to be in a higher class!

[Westi7]

Super5 that was one of the best post that I've ever read! I agree 1000%! Honestly if it were up to me our team would be playing in the Conference because I love playing the best teams regardless of the class. I would love to play the Logo's, Phares, Chargers, Resmondos, etc... every weekend but the cost for the sponsors would be crazy. It's frustrating having to play down all year to A.) be able to play in a tourney w/ 20+ teams and B.) just to get to worlds and even stand a chance of winning or competing because once u get to a world the E is D, D is C, C is B and so forth. Anyway thanks again for the post!